Advertisement

SKIP ADVERTISEMENT
bars
0:00/42:03
-42:03

transcript

Sacha Baron Cohen Has a Message for Mark Zuckerberg

The actor who, as Borat, drew our attention to racism, misogyny and autocratic propaganda calls out the social media companies who profit off these trends.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

archived recording

(SINGING) When you walk in the room, do you have sway?

kara swisher

I’m Kara Swisher, and you’re listening to “Sway“. My guest today is actor and comedian, Sacha Baron Cohen. This year, he’s been nominated for three Golden Globes, including for the Netflix film, “The Trial of the Chicago 7“. In that, he plays 1960s civil rights activist, Abbie Hoffman. But the world knows Baron Cohen best as the characters that have come before. Ali G —

archived recording (sacha baron cohen)

Booyakasha. Check this out, yo.

kara swisher

— Bruno —

archived recording (sacha baron cohen)

So why is being gay so out this season?

kara swisher

— and of course, Borat.

archived recording (sacha baron cohen)

Jagshemash. My name Borat. I like you. I like sex. Is nice.

kara swisher

I love Borat.

Yet my personal favorite performance is one Baron Cohen actually delivered as himself. It was a keynote address at the 2019 Anti-Defamation League Summit. In it, he called out some of the biggest names in tech.

archived recording (sacha baron cohen)

The Silicon Six — all billionaires, all Americans, who care more about boosting their share price than about protecting democracy. [APPLAUSE] This is ideological imperialism — six unelected individuals in Silicon Valley imposing their vision on the rest of the world, unaccountable to any government and acting like they’re above the reach of law.

kara swisher

The Silicon Six — why didn’t I think of that? Yes, Sacha Baron Cohen and I share a hobby, and it’s calling out immensely powerful people.

And let’s talk about a group you called the Silicon Six. And these are terms you coined for Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook, Jack Dorsey of Twitter, Susan Wojcicki of YouTube, Sundar Pichai of Alphabet Google, Larry Page and Sergey Brin, also the founders of Google. You and I share a passion for calling out their nonsense. This is, of course, my job. So what motivated you to take them on?

sacha baron cohen

So, listen, I’ve — truth be told, I’ve always been reluctant to be a celebrity. I’ve always been wary of using whatever fame I’ve got to push any political views. But under Trump, the racism, the anti-Semitism, misogyny that I hinted upon occasionally in the first Borat movie burst into the open. It was spewed by Trump but has really been spread by social media, especially Facebook. And I was appalled by Trump’s Muslim ban and the White nationalist rally in Charlottesville in 2017. Therefore when the ADL invited me to receive an award in 2019, I considered it for the first time. I had been wary of the dangers of social media for a number of years. I had been trying to get other celebrities to talk about it, because of my inherent reluctance. And no one really cared. And then when I did bump into people from Silicon Valley at Hollywood parties — because, yes, billionaires want to go to Hollywood parties to meet celebrities —

kara swisher

Oh, I’ve been there with them.

sacha baron cohen

Yeah, I would try and get them in a corner and say, listen, this is going on. And this is going to lead to the end of democracy. And I’d give them my whole spiel, and their answer would be, oh, I thought you were going to be a bit funnier. So, at one point, I had quite a heated discussion with one of them at an art gallery opening in San Francisco about Holocaust denial, just asking why they were allowing Holocaust denial. And they said, no, we’re not. We’ve sorted that out. And I pulled up a website. Like, what about this? And it was a website saying that the six million was a lie. And it was Holocaust denial site. And they said, well, that’s just really just showed both sides of the argument. And I said, what argument? There’s an argument about whether the Holocaust existed? And then you have this fundamental realization that a lot of these people, they’re incredibly smart in a tiny area, but they should not be given the reins of power. I mean, it’s so mad that this handful of people have the power of emperors.

kara swisher

Right.

sacha baron cohen

This period will be looked on as absurd that governments did not intervene earlier, that these people were allowed to profit off spreading lies that lead to mass death.

kara swisher

OK, so you don’t break into character often. You’re usually Ali G or Borat or Bruno, but you decided to give this speech as yourself. Why?

sacha baron cohen

Well, it was specifically that it was a year away from the election. And I believed that Trump and Trumpism would win again by spreading lies, conspiracies, and hate through social media, conspiracies about the election, and through racism and hate. And there was a predisposition for that stuff to succeed and be more digestible and watchable on social media. For example, as you know, YouTube’s algorithm changed to make it more engaging. If people watch it more, they can increase the sales of advertising, right? Facebook and Google and YouTube are all about advertising. And the way to do that is, you make the next thing that you see increasingly more extreme. It’s this kind of radicalization algorithm, which is why I felt I had to say something. I didn’t think it would have much of an impact. I felt my ambitions for my career were pretty limited, growing up in Northwest London. I wanted to join a theater company called Theater de Complicité So I never thought I was going to have my own TV show. I never thought I’d be given the money to make a movie. I didn’t know anyone who was a successful actor. So by the time I got to 2019, I’d sort of accomplished everything that was beyond my wildest dreams. So I felt that that speech might end my career, for people to say, what the hell is he lecturing us about something he knows nothing about? Just stay in your lane. Stop being— just be funny. And by the way, a lot of the responses I got on Twitter and Facebook were just shut up and be funny.

kara swisher

And be funny. Stay in your lane. They do it to a lot of people.

sacha baron cohen

Yes, a lot of that stuff is really organized by these troll armies.

kara swisher

Yes, they are.

sacha baron cohen

They’re something else. These armies of trolls are used to intimidate people on social media. So actually, it’s not really a place where there’s much freedom of speech, because particularly, if you’re a minority or a woman, or you say stuff that’s to the left, you are bullied. So I felt compelled as a human. I was very reluctant to do it, and—

kara swisher

Well, it worked out well. And one of the things I appreciated and you made in the speech was the distinction you made. And I’ll quote you saying, “This is not about limiting anyone’s free speech. This is about giving people, including some of the most reprehensible people on Earth, the biggest platform in history to reach a third of the planet.” I’ve spent years trying to explain why social media companies can’t hide behind the First Amendment. Why do you think that’s such a difficult message to get across?

sacha baron cohen

Oh, it’s difficult because they’ve been saying it for so many years. So they’ve been lying, right? When Mark Zuckerberg just says, I’m the defender of free speech, he is lying, right? The U.S Constitution says that Congress — Congress, not companies — Congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech. So that does not apply to private businesses like Twitter and Facebook. If they want to ban violent rhetoric and harassment, they have every right to do so. And the analogy I made in the ADL was that if a neo-Nazi comes goosestepping into a restaurant and starts threatening customers and saying he wants to kill Jews, the restaurant owner has every legal right and actually a moral obligation to kick that Nazi out. And so do the internet companies. So the idea that they are the defenders of free speech is ludicrous. I mean, they make editorial decisions continually. They don’t allow nipples, but they did allow Nazis, so.

kara swisher

Yeah, they don’t allow nipples.

sacha baron cohen

I mean, it’s a lie, right? It’s a lie that they’re using to make money.

kara swisher

But as a creator and comedian, the First Amendment is critical to your work. Would you be OK with Twitter, for example, deplatforming the Borat handle because it’s not a real person, or adding a disclaimer to a hateful or heated tweet? Would you worry about that yourself as a comic?

sacha baron cohen

No. I mean, if they gave a handle explaining that it was satire, I think that’s fine. I mean, Borat is satire. I think the role of comedy is important. It’s not as important or as crucial as respecting and buttressing up the fundamental pillars that protect democracy. So for example, there was a lot of talk by Zuckerberg of him coming up the election about freedom of speech, which, obviously, I’m a huge defender of. But what about free and fair elections, which are the fundamental pillar of democracy? No one was talking about that, and the Trump government realized that they could undermine that other pillar. There are a number of pillars that buttress up democracy. One of them is protest. So, free and fair elections is probably the most crucial one, particularly in an election year. And they were completely undermining it by spreading the #stopthesteal hashtag, and beforehand by spreading the idea that mail-in ballots were subject to corruption.

kara swisher

On January 6th, around 5 p.m., you tweeted at Mark, Jack, Susan, and Sundar, saying it’s time to ban Donald Trump from your platform once and for all. I did the same thing and was quite worried about what was about to happen as I saw it unfold. Did you think it was going to get this bad?

sacha baron cohen

Yes, that’s why I made Borat. Borat was an attempt of mine to do what I could prior to the election to infiltrate Trump’s inner circle because I felt he was so dangerous and because I was convinced that conspiracies would end in violence. I made a show called “Who is America?“, where I took a conspiracy theorist who believed in the danger of Antifa and by the end of the episode, which was I had spent two days with him, he believed that he had murdered three members of Antifa. It’s a crucial thing where these people who were marching on the Capitol are not necessarily bad people. It’s the people who are spreading these lies and conspiracies. If you believe in the conspiracy, then everything you do from there is logical. If you really believed —

kara swisher

Or have been made to believe.

sacha baron cohen

Yeah, if you’ve been made to believe that Biden was a pedophile and a cannibal and had stolen the election and Trump had won, then yes, it’s logical to march on Washington and maybe to try and overturn that vote. It’s the conspiracy theory and those who spread it and make money that are at fault.

kara swisher

Where do you stop the thing— Trump should be banned outright from all these platforms, including YouTube, which is something you’ve talked about a lot.

sacha baron cohen

Yes, I believe in permanently banning him. The world’s largest platforms have banned the world’s biggest purveyor of lies, conspiracies, and hate. The impact was actually huge. One study, done by Zignal Labs, found that after Twitter removed Trump, there was a 73% drop in disinformation about the election on social media. So we don’t want YouTube and Facebook or Twitter to lift their suspensions and allow Trump back on to spread his lies and incite violence. You know, he still has complete freedom of speech. He has probably more free speech than just about anyone in the world. He puts out statements that make headlines. He can go out and give a speech any time he wants. But the idea that his free speech has been abridged is ludicrous.

kara swisher

You can also make the argument, as several people have to me, is that Hitler didn’t need Twitter, Mussolini didn’t need Instagram. Stalin didn’t need TikTok, although I can’t believe I’m saying that in one sentence. But they didn’t need these things. And they managed to be as malevolent as they were. Do you think it amplifies the malevolence?

sacha baron cohen

I really don’t agree with that. I mean, if you look at Goebbels, the first thing he did was his social media was radio. He realized that was the new medium, and he realized that, for example, in Austria, if the Nazis took over a lot of the programming on radio, that they could make the invasion and the taking over of Austria easier. Fascists and autocrats are experts on new ways of spreading disinformation. They need them, and they specialize and they focus in on these new media, precisely because they’re unregulated. So that’s what makes social media perfect for autocrats.

kara swisher

Do you have high hopes for the Biden administration or this Congress to do anything, whether breaking them up or changing section 230 to remove liability protections? I know in your 2019 speech, you suggested Zuckerberg and other social media CEOs should get jail time, if their platforms continued to be tools of violence or election interference.

sacha baron cohen

Yes, I think there needs to be regulation. In virtually every other industry, you can be sued for the harm you cause publishers. You can be sued for libel. People can be sued for defamation. I’m still being sued by Roy Moore.

kara swisher

Oh, really?

sacha baron cohen

Yes, that’s another story. But these companies can’t be sued, right? Because of Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. Currently, Facebook and companies like it cannot be held liable for the death they cause. I think that’s completely insane, right? So if you look at how it should work, when Mike Lindell, the MyPillow guy, for those of you who use his wonderful product, went on Newsmax the other day and started spewing lies about the election, the host shut him down. Why? Because Newsmax can be sued. But Facebook and social media companies spread the very same lies to millions of people because they’re protected by 230. So you already have some exceptions to Section 230. Social media companies, as you know, they can be held liable for hosting content related to criminal conduct like copyright infringement, sex trafficking, prostitution, and child pornography. So my point is if they could be held liable for enabling pedophiles who use their site to endanger kids, then why can’t we hold these companies responsible for those who use their sites for advocating the mass murder of kids because of their race or religion. If your actions online cause harm or death in the real world, you should be liable. I think it’s quite simple to fix this, which is, instead of making money off lies that cost lives, I believe that these social media companies should create jobs that save lives, right? There are three problems that I think you could solve at once. One, which is even during the pandemic, Facebook and social media companies are making massive profits by spreading lies and conspiracies about COVID and vaccines, right? They are profiting off of death. Two, Facebook and other social media companies— and when I speak to them, they go, Sacha, we’re overwhelmed. How are we meant to do it? There’s so much stuff being uploaded every day. They claim that their artificial intelligence catches most of the inappropriate content, but they claim that their real world content moderators can’t keep up with the volume. The third problem is because of the pandemic, millions of people are unemployed. So my thought is—

kara swisher

Hire these people.

sacha baron cohen

Why can’t Mark Zuckerberg— yeah, you’re absolutely right. Why can’t they hire hundreds of thousands of people to enforce their policies as content moderators? They can afford it. General Motors, at its peak in the ‘70s, employed more than 800,000 people around the world. Last year, Facebook made $86 billion, and they did it with 50,000 employees. Facebook could hire Americans to help protect American democracy, hire Brits to protect British democracy, and the same all over the world, right? It would put people to work. It would stop the lies, save lives, and buttress our democracy.

kara swisher

I like this idea.

sacha baron cohen

Great, I was hoping you would. [LAUGHS] [MUSIC PLAYING]

kara swisher

We’ll be back in a minute. If you like this interview and want to hear others, hit Subscribe. You’ll be able to catch up on Sway episodes you may have missed, like my conversation with former Parler CEO John Matze. And you’ll get new ones delivered directly to you. More with Sacha Baron Cohen after the break.

Most recently, Baron Cohen appeared in “The Trial of the Chicago 7“. The film is based on the true story of anti-war protests held during the 1968 Democratic National Convention. Baron Cohen plays Abbie Hoffman, a founder of the 1960s Yippie movement and an activist with a sense of humor. Hoffman found space for comedic stunts even in the face of his highly politicized prosecution. I wanted to know what drew Baron Cohen to the project and why he thought the story was still relevant 50 years later.

sacha baron cohen

I’ve been connected to incarcerate for 13 years, and it’s been getting increasingly relevant. And I think it’s about the power of peaceful protest when standing up against injustice and the bravery of those people that do that. It’s also about the persistence of systemic racism. The film shows the horrific treatment of Bobby Seale, who was the only Black defendant. And we were actually filming this prior to the protests over the murder of George Floyd. And so, really, it’s a tribute to anyone who stands up against injustice, from Ukraine to Moscow to Kenosha to Portland. When I read the script the second time, it was actually during the hearings for Brett Kavanaugh. And the hearings were supposed to be about justice, but what we saw at the time was profound injustice, to me. Professor Ford was swearing that her allegations were true. And I remember one of the committee asked Brett Kavanaugh to swear before God that what he said was correct, and that was enough for the committee member. And it felt like we were seeing two parallel justice systems here— one a modern one where she’s appealing to fact and proper recollection and evidence, and one depending on belief in God. I mean, it could have been half a thousand years ago. I couldn’t believe it was happening. It seemed like a perversion of justice, a system that didn’t work. And I felt more compelled than ever to play Abbie.

kara swisher

Did you know the story of Abbie Hoffman before you took this part?

sacha baron cohen

I’d first learned about him when I was studying in Cambridge, hosting my undergraduate thesis on Jewish activists in the civil rights movement. And I was particularly inspired by left-wing Jews who went down South to fight systemic racism. Abbie Hoffman was one of them. He was a guy who was ready to sacrifice his life to fight against racism and fight for justice. And also, what inspired me was he was a Yippie. His antics and pranks got all the attention, but he was deadly serious. He was risking his life to fight racism and fight the war in Vietnam. But his conviction was completely pure, and he was ready to sacrifice his life.

kara swisher

The film’s writer and director, Aaron Sorkin, recently wrote that part of the reason it took 14 years for the film to be made is because he didn’t immediately get Hoffman’s character. Sorkin said, quote, “I thought he was a clown, not particularly clever. And I wasn’t seeing the heroism.” That changed when he saw archival footage of Hoffman at a press conference, a moment you recreate in the film.

archived recording

Would you have taken $100,000 to call the whole thing off? Yeah, sure, I would have taken $100,000. As for calling it off, how much is it worth to you? What’s your price? To call off the revolution? What’s your price?

My life.

kara swisher

Talk a little bit about this moment of being a hero.

sacha baron cohen

Well, it’s interesting. You were talking about Aaron, and my first meeting with Aaron was 13 years ago. And this was the debate, actually, which was, is Abbie Hoffman a hero? I felt strongly that he was. Aaron, at that time, thought, no, he was this fool. It’s telling that Aaron chose to replicate that scene from reality. So everything else is Aaron’s painting rather than a photograph. He’s using his brilliant screenplay skills to create this wonderful story. But there, he recreates that scene pretty much word for word because he thinks it’s crucial, and so do I, which is underneath the layers of this clown in this seemingly fool is this deadly serious, brave protester, who’s ready to risk his life. And the antics were — the more I read about him — and I tried to read everything I could and watch everything I could. I went down to archives and heard old stand-up that he’d done. Everything was intentional with Abbie, even his comedy. He was very, very influenced by Lenny Bruce. He tried to emulate the way that Lenny delivered gags. He was actually even influenced by Lenny’s trial. That convinced Abbie that they would go to jail. It didn’t matter what would happen during the trial. The aim of the trial was not to declare their innocence. It was to convince people back home that the war in Vietnam was immoral. And he was using these tactics of the bouffon, which is a type of theater that I studied under this French clown teacher. That itself is an absurd sentence to hear.

kara swisher

Ah, the years of French clown teaching.

sacha baron cohen

Exactly, but I did actually — actually, coincidentally, my wife studied under his rival French clown teacher, but anyway.

kara swisher

Wait, there’s two?

sacha baron cohen

There were two. So I studied in L’École Philippe Gaulier. And my wife studied in L’École Jacques Lecoq. And there was a —

kara swisher

[LAUGHTER] Oh, my god.

sacha baron cohen

— very serious break-off at one point where Philippe Gaulier broke off from his mentor, Jacques Lecoq, probably over a debate over red noses. I’m not sure.

kara swisher

Right, right, so.

sacha baron cohen

But this guy, Philippe Gaulier teaches — actually, both of them teach — they’re some of the only people in the world who teach this style of theater called bouffon. Bouffon is an early form of satire. It’s a medieval form, where, essentially, the dispossessed in medieval society, who were generally forced to live outside the villages — and they were heretic priests, gay people, Jews. Those with disabilities were allowed in once a year. And they would try to put on these plays called bouffon plays that were intended to be really funny, but were intended to completely undermine and destroy the powerful and the establishment. And I felt, looking at Abbie, that he was a bouffon. Like, saying he would levitate the Pentagon, bringing thousands of people to do that, or —

kara swisher

So they were stunts. They were stunts — that were of — political stunts to be effective.

sacha baron cohen

Yes, to be effective, and they were effective, because as Aaron — the final script brings in this argument with Tom Hayden. He says this is the reason we’re doing that. We didn’t have the resources. This is how I’m getting attention. Abbie was incredibly aware of the media. And that was something that became very clear in Aaron’s later scripts, where they’re going to demonstrate where the cameras are.

archived recording

Inside the bar, it’s like the ‘60s never happened. Outside the bar, the ‘60s were being performed for anyone who looked out of the window. [GLASS SHATTERING]

sacha baron cohen

He knows that the whole purpose is to get attention and get into the living room. So he knows that they’re not going to win. They’re going to try and win the hearts.

kara swisher

What’s interesting is, you do that, too, and — I hate to say it — this is something Trump does rather well. He plays for the stunt, for the audience. His is malevolent. He’s sort of the evil clown, sort of the clown from “It“, I guess.

sacha baron cohen

I mean, yes, Trump is a cometitian. He was very aware of the power of humor to engage his audience. I don’t find him funny, but his crowd found him really funny. So, yes, that’s part of the reason why he was so effective and so entertaining. Abbie knew that mocking the establishment would be his key. He used to say that sacred cows made the tastiest hamburgers. And he realized that if he could make people laugh, he could gain attention and recruit more people to the cause. I mean, everything he did, the more I read about him, was incredibly intentional, even though he gave this kind of loose —

kara swisher

Yes, right.

sacha baron cohen

— feeling. Even the length of his hair was an attempt to influence hippies to go out and risk their lives to demonstrate against the war in Vietnam.

kara swisher

Right, Hoffman is obviously a left of center character. This opens up him to criticism in the film. For example, there’s a scene where his more buttoned-up co-defendant, Tom Hayden, calls him out on doing this.

archived recording

My problem is that for the next 50 years, when people think of progressive politics, they’re going to think of you. They’re going to think of you and your idiot followers passing out daisies to soldiers and trying to levitate the Pentagon. So they’re not going to think of equality or justice. They’re not going to think of education or poverty or progress. They’re going to think of a bunch of stoned, lost, disrespectful, foul-mouthed, lawless losers. And so we’ll lose elections.

kara swisher

Well, it strikes me that 50 years on, this meme of progressive — as idealistic sort of hippies and rebel rousers still exist. Do you think it’s fair to characterize Hoffman or modern day progressives like this?

sacha baron cohen

Well, again, I’m not a historian of that particular period. I specialize more in the early ‘60s. But yes, I mean, Sorkin is a master. And what he’s trying to do is bring these issues into the present. So, yes, this is about the debate between the left and the far left, which he beautifully encapsulates in the hatred of Abbie Hoffman and Tom Hayden. He actually got that from sitting down with Tom Hayden, where they were, in effect, these brothers that hate each other. And at the end of the movie, they love and respect each other. I mean, I feel that change starts with pressure in the streets. They were both aware of that. Abbie felt that they needed to win elections, but they needed to push society to.

archived recording

And winning elections, that’s the first thing on your wish list. Equality, justice, education, poverty, and progress, they’re second. If you don’t win elections, it doesn’t matter what’s second. And it is astonishing to me that someone still has to explain that to you. OK.

sacha baron cohen

But you do see this kind of interknit scene struggle within the left. I mean, we are far less effective as a force often because there is less uniformity. There is less of an ability to say, OK, eyes on the prize, which the Republicans were able to do. Let’s concentrate on winning the election and fall into line. Instead, there is often an attempt to destroy each other again.

kara swisher

And what’s interesting is when you go fast forward, his life ended sadly. Did you think about that at all when you were playing him, where he was headed, since you knew the end of the story?

sacha baron cohen

Yes, I mean, the truth is Abbie battled depression and later took his own life. And I felt he was somebody who was struggling quietly. And I wanted to capture that seriousness and that subtlety, the contrast between his public dynamism and his sensitivity and occasional private pain. But yes, I mean, it’s hinted at, and it’s shocking when you see it on screen. You find out what happened to all the characters, and you find out that Abbie died later on. If you compare him to the rest of Chicago Seven, Jerry Rubin, I think he became a stockbroker.

kara swisher

A yuppie, yeah. Remember, he — yippie to yuppie —

sacha baron cohen

Yeah, Tom Hayden obviously had a political career. But Abbie never sold out, and he remained true to his ideals. So I fell in love with him.

kara swisher

So you recently tweeted, “Borat is an absurdity, and the Chicago Seven really happened. But the message is the same — when leaders lie, people die.” Can you expand what you meant by that?

sacha baron cohen

Yes, I mean, these were — first, here’s a tweet. So I’m trying to sum up stuff very quickly and —

kara swisher

Yeah, I’m familiar with Twitter. I know.

sacha baron cohen

[LAUGHS] It’s not the most subtle form of —

kara swisher

No.

sacha baron cohen

— communication, which is why it’s so effective. But Vietnam was a lie, right? There was no moral basis for that. And then with Borat, I was trying to say, these lies that were being spread by Trump, whether about coronavirus or about the election, would lead to death — and were leading to death. I was trying to create some connection between the two.

kara swisher

You did a lot of things in Borat that — and all your characters, where you got them to do things. Like, you got the cake person to put um, Jews —

sacha baron cohen

Yes, Jews will not replace us.

kara swisher

Jews will not replace us, which was the Charlottesville thing. You put a series of conspiracies everywhere, and they quickly take over. You think it’s unfair at all to do it that way, or do you think it’s — again, getting back to Abbie Hoffman, it’s a way to get out the truth from people to be doing these different things? I don’t know what to call them. What do you call them? Are they pranks? Are they —

sacha baron cohen

I prefer not to call them pranks. I mean, essentially, what I do is I point the camera, and people act as they do. So, some people end up appearing dreadful. Rudy Giuliani didn’t come out looking great. It’s something that I realized very, very early on the first time I did Borat, which was, I took Borat when I was 25 years old to a pro foxhunting rally. And it was a way to get these members of the upper class to really say what they believed about criminals and ethnic minorities. I said, in my country, we have Jews. We give them a head start, and we let them run. You think we should do it here? And then, well, I suppose if it was fair and you gave them at least 20 or so minutes, then yes, I suppose that — you know. So it was a fascinating insight to me. When I started Borat first, I actually pitched it as a documentary. So I was going around the BBC and Channel 4, just going, this is a new way to have these documentaries, which are trying to shed light on topics, but —

kara swisher

On what people really think.

sacha baron cohen

Yeah, what they really think and what they’re saying behind closed doors.

kara swisher

So speaking of closed doors, I want to ask you about Giuliani. So let me give the context. You filmed him. He’s caught with his hands down his pants after a fake journalist, your co-star Maria Bakalova had removed his mic after an interview. Was there any footage we didn’t see? And why did you not wait a little longer before bursting out of the closet to see what he would do? How did you make that call?

sacha baron cohen

So, that was a difficult call. So Rudy, we were told, was coming with a cop, who he employs. As you know, Rudy has a tremendous amount of respect amongst the NYPD. And we were told that the cop would sweep the room. As a result of that, we built a little hideaway for me inside a wardrobe. And I essentially stood there for an hour while the interview was going on. My only means of communication was a cell phone with the director and Jason Woliner and the producer, Ant Hines. And so they were essentially saying, OK, go in now. There’s one time I actually went in there three times. The first time was in a room service trolley, which we did ended up not showing. A room service guy brings in a room service trolley. I’m actually hiding underneath there. I poked my head out from underneath the tablecloth with a sign to my daughter, saying, “Don’t do it.” And she’s like, you know, and essentially, Rudy was slightly suspicious. He turns around, I had to put the tablecloth down. In the end, I removed that. The second time, I came in as a sound guy. And the third time, I came in to stop what was happening. But yeah, I was relying on the Jason Woliner, the director, and Ant Hines to text me. And the worrying thing was — we’d done everything to try and make sure that the interview went well. We had hidden cameras. Amazingly, by the way, Rudy, the president’s lawyer, signed a contract in which he allows the use of hidden cameras. So he’s not the most diligent at reading contracts.

kara swisher

Wow, no. Well, we know that.

sacha baron cohen

But the one thing we didn’t have was enough battery in the phone. So I had about 3% of battery when I got in there, switched on the phone.

kara swisher

Do you wish you had waited longer to see what — I thought you were correct in your thing. He, of course, denies it. Other people — it was like internet detective work on the internet on Twitter for days and days, what he was doing precisely.

sacha baron cohen

Well, I think what you saw is what he did, is what it is. I trust the audience, and everyone can watch the movie and judge for themselves. But essentially, I had to keep Maria safe. We had an escape plan. I was going to run down the stairs, but actually, Rudy’s bodyguard gets me and pushes me into the room and says, you’re staying here until the cops arrive. And then suddenly, I’m Borat. Borat doesn’t understand what a chair is. He’s like, what is this machine with four legs? Suddenly, Borat has a real understanding of the law. Excuse me, sir. This is my room. I have paid for it. Under the law, you are not permitted in my room. You must leave now. And he’s like, no, you’re going to stay in here. No, that is false imprisonment. You are not allowed to. I am instructing you to leave. And then, essentially, I left with the security guard. We ran down the steps. Rudy calls the cops, lies to them, and says that a federal crime has been committed. And as a result, the cops search the room.

kara swisher

Yeah, what is the fallout from the whole thing?

sacha baron cohen

I think tellingly, Rudy has not sued, because he knows that he would lose. But it does make you wonder what did Rudy try to do to other female journalists. And I think the wonderful thing about it was we had no idea how impactful or how pivotal Rudy would be in the final month of the election and post-election in spreading this lie. The fallout is that the whole world has seen Rudy for what he is.

kara swisher

Which one do you prefer, the characters that you have or this sort of Abbie Hoffman, which is a more sort of pure acting experience?

sacha baron cohen

I prefer playing Abbie Hoffman. I mean, I’ve loved playing Borat, but it’s sometimes dangerous, and there’s no fun in going out when it’s dangerous. I want this to be the last Borat movie. And it’s far more enjoyable and relaxing to be an actor in the hands of other masterful screenwriters and directors. It’s nice having a trailer. It’s lovely having craft services and chatting to the fantastic cast of “Chicago 7” in between takes. It’s not a fun experience making Borat or “Who is America?“. It’s difficult. My crew, the directors, my co-writers and producers, they’re taking not insignificant risks by going out and shooting at gun rallies where they risk arrest or being beaten up or —

kara swisher

Sure.

sacha baron cohen

We were told at that gun rally that if they found out that you were an infiltrator or not a believer, that they would get COVID-positive people to spit at you. So that quite apart from the fact that so many people were carrying semi-automatic weapons. And finally, I got surrounded in the getaway car by an angry crowd who were carrying guns and trying to pull me out of this vehicle.

kara swisher

Right. Well, you were an infiltrator.

sacha baron cohen

It’s not pleasant. There is some exhilaration when you manage to survive it. And I think Maria Bakalova certainly experienced that. She was so nervous before every scene, but brilliantly pulled off everything we threw at her. And then she was exhilarated. But for me, it’s a little more heavy. Because I escaped from the gun rally, and my main concern as a producer is, have the rest of the crew got out? Have we got the footage out, and is everybody safe? So, no, I’m not returning to that style of comedy again.

kara swisher

What are you doing next?

sacha baron cohen

I am not doing anything.

kara swisher

Oh, all right.

sacha baron cohen

I am unemployed. I am taking a break. [LAUGHS]

kara swisher

All right, I have one last question. Mark, Jack, and Sundar will speak in Congress again on March 25th. If you were on the dais, very briefly, what would you ask, and what character would it be?

sacha baron cohen

I would probably ask them as myself. Was it worth it? Was the huge amount of money that you’ve amassed worth the destruction that you’ve wreaked on democracy and the deaths that you’ve caused? Was it really worth becoming even richer?

kara swisher

I like Sacha Baron Cohen’s voice of all of them.

sacha baron cohen

You like the Northwest London voice. OK, it’s yours.

kara swisher

Yes, I like it. It feels genuine. I don’t know. Maybe it’s not. Thank you so much, and good luck with the Golden Globes.

sacha baron cohen

Kara, thank you for having me on. I’m a massive fan of yours. I listen to your podcast, and I read your articles.

kara swisher

Thank you so very much.

sacha baron cohen

Thanks a lot.

kara swisher

All right, bye.

sacha baron cohen

Bye. [MUSIC PLAYING]

kara swisher

“Sway” is a production of New York Times Opinion. It’s produced by Nayeema Raza, Heba Elorbany, Matt Kwong, Daphne Chen, and Vishakha Darbha; edited by Nayeema Raza and Paula Szuchman; with original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Eric Gomez; and fact-checking by Kate Sinclair and Michelle Harris. Special thanks to Shannon Busta, Liriel Higa, and Kathy Tu. If you’re in a podcast app already, you know how to subscribe to a podcast, so subscribe to this one. If you’re listening on The Times website and want to get each new episode of “Sway” delivered you faster than Rudy Giuliani can tuck in his shirt, download a podcast app like Stitcher or Google Podcasts, then search for “Sway“, and hit Subscribe. We release every Monday and Thursday — for make benefit glorious nation of “Sway“.

Sacha Baron Cohen was busy last year. In “The Trial of The Chicago 7,” he portrayed 1960s antiwar activist Abbie Hoffman. In “Borat Subsequent Moviefilm,” he revived his role as a Kazakh journalist touring America. These films may seem historical or comedic, respectively, but Baron Cohen says their themes — abuse of political power, misogyny and disinformation — are reflective of our current reality. He blames two things: Donald Trump and social media.

[You can listen to this episode of “Sway” on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, Amazon Music, Google or wherever you get your podcasts.]

In this episode of “Sway,” Kara Swisher and Baron Cohen discuss whether Silicon Valley C.E.O.s should be liable for the content on their platforms, what the rift in the Democratic Party means for future elections and — of course — what else happened with Rudy Giuliani.

(A full transcript of the episode will be available midday on the Times website.)

Image
Credit...Illustration by The New York Times; photograph by George Pimentel/WireImage, via Getty Images

Thoughts? Email us at sway@nytimes.com.

“Sway” is produced by Nayeema Raza, Heba Elorbany, Matt Kwong, Daphne Chen and Vishakha Darbha and edited by Nayeema Raza and Paula Szuchman; fact-checking by Kate Sinclair; music and sound design by Isaac Jones; mixing by Erick Gomez. Special thanks to Kathy Tu, Michelle Harris, Shannon Busta and Liriel Higa.

Advertisement

SKIP ADVERTISEMENT